Never buying another VAG product again.

Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby 1300zuk » Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:49 am

Well in terms of regulation off-road use is anything not used on roads, so diggers, bulldozers, boats, etc.

I didn't create English or how they classify groups. And seriously relax about the issue you'll get all worked over a very small global issue, yes VW fucked up and should be punished, but it's still the same car, it's still fuel efficient, it's still safe to drive from a physical standpoint. It might be 2 years before your car has a fix, enjoy the car you purchased.
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby thewalrus » Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:00 am

1300zuk wrote:Well in terms of regulation off-road use is anything not used on roads, so diggers, bulldozers, boats, etc.

I didn't create English or how they classify groups. And seriously relax about the issue you'll get all worked over a very small global issue, yes VW fucked up and should be punished, but it's still the same car, it's still fuel efficient, it's still safe to drive from a physical standpoint. It might be 2 years before your car has a fix, enjoy the car you purchased.


The guy who first busted out the term "fuckface" in any kind of argument probably shouldn't be trying to claim the "seriously relax" high ground.

I still consider this to actually be a pretty big deal for the plant. NOx is a filthy substance. I consider 500 000 cars in North American alone producing excessive amounts of it, to be unacceptable. Yes, I know there are bigger polluters. But this was nevertheless a significant source that should never have existed.

It's a big deal for me personally because I was quite deliberately sold a false bill of goods. I consider this to be every bit the same as if a company rigged it's cars to show increased horsepower on a dyno and reduce it in real life driving to show improved fuel economy. It's not the same car - the car I thought I was driving was torquey, quick, fuel efficient and clean. I'm not going to enjoy the car because I don't like the idea of it polluting as much as it is. You can consider that to be stupid, or ridiculous or inconsequential if you like. But I don't. So I'm not going to drive it unless absolutely necessary. And I'm definitely not going to enjoy it. After it's fixed I'm going to sell it because I don't want to be seen to be supporting a company that would pull what VW pulled, and I'm never going to buy another one of their products. I'll likely sell it at a loss because I highly doubt that the fix VW chooses to implement will leave the car the way it is. If VW chooses to compensate me for any loss, that's fine. If they don't, I'm still going to go down that route.

I'm actually really surprised to see you backing VW so intensely. Even if you don't care about the environmental consequences of what they did, though you should, you work for their competitor - a competitor who, presumably, has been doing this the right way - and almost certainly lost sales to VW as a direct result of what they did.

In any case, if you don't like the fact that I'm pissed about this, you don't have to read my posts on here or Facebook. But I certainly don't plan on forgetting it.
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby tut » Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:43 am

appeared on my facebook. not sure how much actually has to do with diesel road cars, though ...
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also, i dislike diesels, as they smell and are noisy, and shit... even the "clean" ones ... yet i do agree with zuk that they're far from the biggest polluters. then again, multiple years ago, i spent a day and a half researching maps of lung cancer per capita and diesel cars per capita. and there was a link. yes, it wasn't very unscientific research, and i knew what i wanted to prove beforehand, and the actual link between the both might be non-existant..

oh well

all i know is that i feel like i'm dieing a bit everytime i walk past the brussels airport taxi rank....
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby 1300zuk » Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:44 pm

You had an MG that didn't have a catalyst or an evap system, but owning a car that does not meet current EPA regulations is not ok.
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby thewalrus » Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:00 am

1300zuk wrote:You had an MG that didn't have a catalyst or an evap system, but owning a car that does not meet current EPA regulations is not ok.


You're kidding right? This has got to be the stupidest false equivalency I've ever read. I've only said about a thousand times on this site - and the previous sites - that even from an environmental standpoint classic cars and super cars shouldn't bother anyone. They're driven 500 - 1000 kms a year. Maybe. Total impact is negligible. In the case of classics - the cars are already built - and arguably junking them and sending the parts to a landfill would impact the environment far more than keeping them restored and driving them once a week, 5 months of the year.

If you think that owning and driving an MGB as a hobby car over the summer is in anyway comparable to owning and driving a BRAND NEW daily driver that does 20 - 30 000 km a year while polluting WELL ABOVE EPA regulations (10 - 40 TIMES what they promised it would), then you must be trying to be deliberately dense about this whole issue. Or you're just desperately grasping at straws to keep the argument going.
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby Talon » Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:48 pm

This thread is bringing back the AF of old :wub:
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby thewalrus » Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:53 pm

Talon wrote:This thread is bringing back the AF of old :wub:


We desperately need Les to weigh in.
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby 1300zuk » Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:39 pm

It's a shitty deal, but do you really want this to consume your life for the next 2 years while you wait for a fix?

And also, I find it quite funny that the U.S. Government helped citizens purchase these cars during cash for clunkers. :D
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby thewalrus » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:25 pm

1300zuk wrote:It's a shitty deal, but do you really want this to consume your life for the next 2 years while you wait for a fix?

And also, I find it quite funny that the U.S. Government helped citizens purchase these cars during cash for clunkers. :D


It's not consuming my life - but if I can't rant about it on a car forum, there's something wrong.

Apparently the German government is giving them 10 days to come up with a fix. After that, 2.8 million vehicles will be illegal on the road. Not sure I agree with the solution of punishing innocent purchasers for the sins of the Company.
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby 1300zuk » Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:41 pm

Suzuki got rid of VW just in time.

Asian companies are generally very honest when it comes to this stuff.
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby thewalrus » Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:18 pm

1300zuk wrote:Suzuki got rid of VW just in time.

Asian companies are generally very honest when it comes to this stuff.


They better be. Since I've already hitched my wagon to Mazda's star.

The sales person was only partially amused when I told him that I better not be seeing reports like this in the news about Skyactive. Not sure if he thought he should take me seriously or not - but he started down the whole "Skyactive is a complete automotive system - not one unique technology" lecture again, etc etc.

A good guy. But super earnest. Or at least he pretended to be earnest.
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby Turbojett » Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:23 am

I'm torn. I don't like Volkswagen Brand proper, I always thought they were overrated and didn't deserve all the plaudits the ever-mercurial car-media was heaping onto them (I'm lookin' square at you Jalopnik. Yeah, suck VW's dick while they're on top, and now that they've been caught, you're leading the witchhunt like you never liked them--bullshit!)
And I'm pissed off that they would do such a thing--but to say you've lost it for all VAG products...That's a lot of R8's, Lambos and Bugattis not to pine over. I just can't give those up...
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby thewalrus » Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:54 pm

Turbojett wrote:I'm torn. I don't like Volkswagen Brand proper, I always thought they were overrated and didn't deserve all the plaudits the ever-mercurial car-media was heaping onto them (I'm lookin' square at you Jalopnik. Yeah, suck VW's dick while they're on top, and now that they've been caught, you're leading the witchhunt like you never liked them--bullshit!)
And I'm pissed off that they would do such a thing--but to say you've lost it for all VAG products...That's a lot of R8's, Lambos and Bugattis not to pine over. I just can't give those up...


That's true - not to mention Porsches 911s, Boxsters and Caymans... and S4s, 5s, and 6s. But here's the thing - most of those cars, yeah, I love them. But they're always just theoretical anyway. When am I actually going to get an R8 or a Lambo or a Porsche or God knows a Bugatti? Maaaaaaybe a Porsche would have been a possibility, second hand, in a few years. But I kinda doubt it.

And besides there are plenty of other cars, that are just as nice, to pine after - Acura's new NSX, Ford's Mustang, the possibility of a new Mazdaspeed Miata or whatever new F-Types Jaguar is planning on releasing. At the higher end you always have Ferraris and Lotuses and Alfas to contemplating buying in the weird, theoretical, 'lottery win' scenario.

Here's the thing - when I get turned off a brand, I get turned off a brand. I was 7 years old when the Exxon Valdez happened. 26 years later I'll still - instinctively - choose an alternative gas station to Esso or Exxon. Doesn't make much sense - all of them pollute (and badly), but that was such a severe, formative, experience for me that it's stuck around. There's no indication that VW and the VAG will be any different. And if that means I loose out on buying a Lamborghini when I hit the jackpot, I guess I'll just have to console myself with a Ford GT.
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby tut » Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:13 pm

In other news, my brother just got a new company car
a one year old vw golf tdi...
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby 1300zuk » Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:27 am

I'm really curious what the fix is going to be, a 2009 with 200k on it has already done the damage, not worth a lot of money.

Does VW repurchase vehicle and destroy, repair, give customer dollar amount, contribute to environmental agency?

Sure they are supposed to come up with a fix, but if parts are involved it will take years to fix the majority. If it's just reflash they can start soon. Just reflash is very unlikely or else they would have already done it, so parts or reduced vehicle performance with a reflash are their only option.

The customer can really do nothing at this point but wait and continue to drive, those with highest mileage may come out ahead financially.
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby thewalrus » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:19 pm

1300zuk wrote:I'm really curious what the fix is going to be, a 2009 with 200k on it has already done the damage, not worth a lot of money.

Does VW repurchase vehicle and destroy, repair, give customer dollar amount, contribute to environmental agency?

Sure they are supposed to come up with a fix, but if parts are involved it will take years to fix the majority. If it's just reflash they can start soon. Just reflash is very unlikely or else they would have already done it, so parts or reduced vehicle performance with a reflash are their only option.

The customer can really do nothing at this point but wait and continue to drive, those with highest mileage may come out ahead financially.


My theory, for what it's worth, is pretty much this:

1. The actual fix will be a simple engine reprogramming. My understanding is that this should be pretty easy to do. Adding an AdBlue system would be expensive, time consuming, and probably still not as reliable as if it had been added in at the start.

2. This fix will almost certainly result in worse horsepower, worse torque numbers, worse fuel economy and worse reliability. That'll, obviously lead to a decrease in value in the car.

3. VW will, with the fix, provide compensation for the decrease in value - my guess would be that this is some sort of matrix - VW Canada, VW USA, etc. will have a chart showing how much a car is worth depending on year and miles and option packages. They'll assign a 'current value' to the car - probably something like 1/2 to 2/3 of what it used to be worth, and compensate the owner for the difference. In my case probably $ 5-6 k. This is the only way they can maintain consistency and fairness across the board. When an owner accepts the compensation they'll have to waive legal rights to sue. There may be a buy back option - but I suspect that would be too costly and time consuming to do. Not to mention not really in VW's interests - clog up their lots, forego all the maintenance money that they'd otherwise be making, etc.

4. They'll throw a little extra in. Not sure what this'll take the form of. My guess would be some sort of discount on a new TSI - try to get customers back into the fold and allow them to completely get the TDIs off their hands without selling privately or worrying about trading it in. And a 2016 VW would be a good way to do that. Then you keep a customer, get all the money from servicing, and by the time the new VW goes tits up, the whole NOx issue (Black NOx scandal?) is forgotten and the customers are back in line. The traded in car could then be sold for $5k, $10k or whatever to some first time car buyer whose looking for something cheap and efficient - maybe they'll rebrand them the "City Golfs and Jettas"

5. I don't know. I can't see them doing much more than that. I'm sure it'd also be in concert with the EPA who'll cut the fine down if they take appropriately quick and compensatory action.
Last edited by thewalrus on Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby thewalrus » Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:26 pm

And seriously, even a lot of my TDI owning friends who are suitably outraged at the environmental destructiveness of VW's NOx issue have said that if they went in, were given $5000 + a decent trade in on the TDI + a discount on a new TSI, would probably make the switch. Just so long as they didn't end up paying more money for having done it - ie. montly payments still the same, term still the same. Or if it's paid off just a direct flip, one for the other.

Just approximating the math in my head, I bet that a $15 k effective trade in / downpayment + a 15% reduction on the cost of a loaded TSI + 0% financing would get you there. The customer may even be 'ahead' in that scenario.
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby Arthur Dent » Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:22 pm

I wonder if some of the older ones will be exported to third world countries
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby thewalrus » Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:22 pm

Arthur Dent wrote:I wonder if some of the older ones will be exported to third world countries


I'd almost guarantee it. I mean, VW is clearly not actually concerned about protecting the environment - they just want to make money, and reluctantly complying with legislation and penalties in North America is the only way they can do it, here. Third world nations, on the other hand are a free for all.
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Re: Never buying another VAG product again.

Postby 1300zuk » Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:07 pm

Other manufacturers recalls are slowly trickling through while VW has the spotlight.

Those are always fun to monitor, because sometimes auto companies sit on older recalls to time them with another's larger to try and keep bad press to a minimum. Also manufacturers review others recalls to make sure they don't have the same problem. So expect more, much smaller focused recalls to occur from everyone
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