Thinking of buying a MG or Triumph.

[sombrio]

Discuss, and try to talk me out of it, or into it, as you see fit.

This would be a mid-1970s MGB or Triumph Spitfire. The cars we're looking at are around $5,000, and are generally clean, in running/driving condition, and free of visible or major defects. No rust, lights work, engines run at least OK. It would be a "first do-it-ourselves semi-project car" for me and my wife to work on and play with together. We would try to use it near-daily but not put too many miles on it and we don't expect a dead-reliable daily commuter car. My wife's commute is just 4 miles or so and we have 2 Hondas already. I test drove the MGB and Spitfire today and they were just an absolute blast. I liked the Spitfire a little more because the MGB seemed a little shaky at idle (is that normal)? We're going to see a slightly cheaper MGB that's a bit farther away tomorrow.

Any thoughts, opinions, comments? I'm hoping someone has some experience with these cars and can offer some thoughts. Our neighbor was a British motoring enthusiast so we're familiar with the general experience. We want a car that's fun and that we can work on ourselves. We expect some problems and having to put in some time, effort, and money, and that's definitely OK, but we can't afford to spend thousands and thousands just to keep it running. (Fortunately parts are cheap, but of course there is some limit to what we can do ourselves, especially in terms of transmission, suspension, etc.)

It kind of seems perfect, and I'm getting increasingly excited about the idea. I am hoping that if a previous owner is here and realizes that I'm jumping into a pit of despair that you can let me know before it's too late. Although really, people seem to love the cars and it's not hard to see why. I just wonder if I'm missing something or going to have to spend $10,000 the first year or what. What do you guys think?

[Arthur Dent]

If you can turn your own wrenches for the most part they can be cheap and enjoyable. For Bs and Spitfires almost any part is available and priced well. If you pay a mechanic for every little then it will get away from you. Buy a decent non-rusty car. Neither are worth a ton so lots of rust repair puts you underwater. Your plan sounds very reasonable.

I've owned two Spitfires - tons of fun. Super easy to work. The 1500s are easy to live with. Rear suspension is much improved from the earlier cars. Engines aren't very inspiring that is ok. Wheel bolt pattern is a little oddball for North America so swapping on a set of new rims means aftermarket.

Bs are neat as well. A bit bigger than a Spitfire. Very much more old tech. Lever shocks at the front (coil overs on the Spitfire), cart axle at the rear (IRS swing axle on the Spitfire). The engine is robust but uninspiring. More Bs out there than Spitfires which means parts a little cheaper but you'll see more of them about at shows and such.

Both of the later cars have the crappy water choke Zenith Stromberg carb. The earlier manual choke ones aren't bad but plenty of options to ditch it - Weber, SUs, etc.



This is my last Spitfire. $200 and a lot of effort separate the two photos.

[thewalrus]

I owned a 71 MGB for a year or so.

They're definitely fun cars - way more character than anything new. And tons of fun to drive, even though they're slower than almost anything else on the road. Plus you get tons of thumbs up. Some of my thoughts as a non-mechanically inclined MGB owner.

1. In my opinion, go with an MGB over a Spitfire - if you want a somewhat reasonable, regular, practical car. The Spitfire is tiny. Even by MGB standards. My British Car Mechanic also told me he finds them more difficult to work on - and more prone to issues. Dent could probably give you a better idea about Spitfire ownership, though.

2. Research a ton first (kinda common sense) - the difference between a good MGB and a bad MGB is huge. The difference between a good year and a bad year is huge. I'd avoid anything from the rubber bumper era - personally. From a largely aesthetics perspective. But also when it comes to performance and handling. Spend a little extra money and try to get some of the things that increase value and driveability - electronic overdrive is a big one for the MGs. Mine didn't have it - and driving it at anything over 35 - 40 mph was.... loud. Go for the later 5 bearing engine over the 3 bearing engine. From what I read, during my research, a rust-less, straight, body is absolutely most important. More so than perfect mechanicals. is a great site. I got a lot of questions answered there.

3. Know that if you get wire wheels they'll require maintenance - they look great, but I heard nightmare stories from my mechanic about people who never once trued them... wasn't pretty. definitely look closely before buying a car with them.

4. Things go wrong. Usually the car will tell you somethings about to go wrong before it does. Sometimes it won't. My MG developed an overheating problem not long after I bought it. Shocking - I know. No warning. The thermostat failed. It was an easy fix. But the car effectively left me stranded for the better part of a morning. If you absolutely have to get somewhere - don't use a 45 year old British Roadster. All things considered, though, I drove the car regularly during the Summer and Fall months, and it was reasonably reliable. Small things kept cropping up that needed addressing. But when it came to the fundamental requirements of transportation, it was actually pretty good.

5. Have a mechanic look at the car before you buy. Bad restorations and quick fixes from accidents, are easy for casual hobbyists to miss. I avoided a couple of lemons simply by having my mechanic do a 5 minute inspection of the car before I bought.

6. All the jokes about electrical gremlins are based on elements of truth. Mine was better than some. But the headlights would still cut out when signaling to turn right (but not left), if I had the highbeams on. Translation - I lost light, in the dark, when making turns. Not ideal.

7. Buy the Haynes manual and try to do as much work as you can on your own. It helps if you have a well lit work area. I lived in an Apartment at the time - and working in a dimly lit parking garage was tough. A lot of places have rules in place against doing much mechanical work as well. So it's a balancing Act. If you don't think you'll be able to do a lot of small stuff on your own (oil changes, basic maintenance), expect to pay a lot to a mechanic. If you can do small stuff on your own... still expect to pay a lot to a mechanic - but at least you won't be embarrassed at having to come in and have him change your oil for you!

8. I guess in the end, I'd say that I loved having the MG. It was our second car. It should have been our third car. Especially in Canada, with real winter. Without serious knowledge of how to repair cars, a significant overhaul by a good mechanic, and a full set of tools (ie not being Peter Egan) - I probably wouldn't take it on a long road trip. That said it was definitely worth the inconvenience and limitations - it was also the most fun I've had on four wheels. Going to car shows is awesome. Getting thumbs up is awesome. Having people stop you at the supermarket and tell you all about how 'they used to drive one in the 60s or 70s' is awesome. You get attention - even in the relatively common MGB. It's not a car for serious introverts! There is absolutely nothing better than driving a British Roadster, on a winding road, and a cool fall day.

[thewalrus]

This one was mine - great, great car. And worth the time / money / aggravation it sometimes cost me.

[Arthur Dent]

I haven't owned an MG B so I can't directly compare the two but I found the Spitfire super easy to work on. Behind the dashboard is a little tight. I never did a full rear suspension rebuild or anything though. I learned a lot on my '74. I bought a ratty example in both cases which is a mistake. Buy a decent one.

Cleaning the grounds and contacts solves 90% of electrical issues. The voltage stabilizer (mounted to the tach) is another place to look in the case of dead gauges (temp. and fuel). Easy fix.

The early cars (both B and Spitfire) and worth more but the later cars can be easier to live with. I don't mind the look of the rubber bumper Bs myself but the 79/80 Spitfires are a bit ugly.

A Fiat Spider is another nice choice. Parts a little harder to find but still decent. Tops are nicer and engines stronger.

[thewalrus]

[Arthur Dent]

I'd skip the Midgets - they aren't nearly as a good of a car. The early ones are very slow and expensive. The later ones are very small inside with some measure of crash protection added into the doors. They can't have overdrive - later ones have a Morris Marina gearbox. The rear axles are very weak and known for breakage. Same lousy lever shocks as the B at the front. The B or Spitfire is a better car for the same money.

TR6s are nice - but a few more bucks - tough to get a good one for $5k. Same with the Alfa.

[sombrio]

Thanks for the thoughts, guys.

Neither of you are in California, are you? Just throwing up a Hail Mary because there are some issues with getting the post-74 cars smogged. I gather you're not supposed to have any engine mods at all, but the technicians who do the inspections don't really know what's stock on these cars, and you can always tinker as needed to pass smog. I don't know if it's worth it to pay more for a good pre-74 example. It sounds like a pain in the ass; but people seem to get by OK, and it sounds like the power is never going to be more than arguably-acceptable anyway.

I've never driven one of these before so the test drives were interesting (and FUN, even going 20 mph in a residential neighborhood)! It reminds me of my dad's old boat. Sometimes 30 mph feels like warp speed.

On to some specific points I wanted to discuss a bit more... sorry for the long post, I have so many questions and so few informed people to discuss them with...

Re: straight body being more important than mechanicals. I'm glad you said that. For me, it's a strange adjustment looking at used cars and trying to focus more on cosmetic stuff. I always look at the engine and transmission above anything else and it feels odd to dismiss a rough idle but care about whether there are any rust spots. But from everything I've heard that's 100% right, so it's good to have confirmation.

Re: MGB vs. Spitfire. I kind of liked the Spit better, but I gather the engines are thought of as less reliable. Any idea exactly how big the difference is? Personal experiences, etc? I'd have hoped the hood would make the Spitfires a bit easier to work on, but perhaps not?

Re: overdrive -- is this pretty much a must-have for me if I plan to drive it on Southern California freeways at all? I didn't get up to highway speeds on the test drives. I liked the first MGB I saw but it was $5900, a little rough around the edges (missing stereo, no connection point for the driver's seatbelt, engine shaking at idle and died during test drive, but otherwise solid and a mechanic's daily driver) and didn't have OD. I don't want my freeway experience to be limited to going 55 MPH at 4500 RPM (exaggerating a little for effect--it's not really that bad--is it?) so it kind of sounds like a must have. Would it be worth it for a good example without OD?

Also, if I get the car in good working order is it reasonable to expect to be able to autocross it semi-regularly? Or is that going to be too much additional strain on an antique car.

I guess that's all that comes to mind right now. I keep going back and forth. I guess the $5900 MG with no OD and some missing parts has to be a no-go, eh? Will just have to get a mechanic's opinion and see what they think, I guess. Overall what do you guys think is a reasonable price for a say mid-70s MGB or Spitfire in reasonably good condition?

Would you rather have a car that's mostly original and hasn't been driven much, or a car that a mechanic has restored himself? Is it important that the car be a previous daily driver? (Some say it's better to buy a car that has been daily driven on the theory that the last owner probably worked out most of the kinks. Again I keep going back and forth on that.)

Thanks to both of you! I'm sure I'll have more burning questions after checking out the cheaper MGB in Oxnard today.

[sombrio]

[Arthur Dent]

I'm a long way off from California (sadly).

Emissions equipment both saps power and is unreliable on these cars. The B lost more power and its output was pretty close to the Spitfire in the mid 70s. Might be worth the premium of an earlier car in California. My '78 has the emissions carb while my '74 didn't - big difference in driveability.

Definitely pick body condition over mechanics - rust in the rockers is an expensive PITA on both. The Spitfire is a little easier as they are body on frame vs B is a unibody. Still rust concerns are the top of the list. California isn't known for rusty car - this is in your favor. Still if the engine is toast figure a couple grand for a rebuild ...

Overdrive transmissions are rare and desirable. Be prepared to pay extra on either car. Swapping it in is more than just a gearbox. Different driveshalfs and a few other bits and pieces. For a summer weekend only car I might be prepared to sit in the slow lane once and a while. Your mileage and cost tolerance will vary. 60mph is about the top level of happy cruising speed - any more than that seems stressed to me.

Spitfires have issues with thrust washers in the engines. They eventually wear and fall into the oil pan. Made worst by those who sit at the lights with the clutch in. The 1500 is most afflicted. There is a test for it if you search it up. Like most things the internet makes it seem worst than it is. Mine never had an issue. The flip hood makes any engine service super, super easy. Plus its cool. The B is likely pretty easy to work on too.

I'd buy a car that has seen similar usage to what you want to do with it. I think you can get a good but not perfect car in your budget. Forum support for the Spitfire is fantastic btw. There used to be a dedicated magazine too.

I'd do an-auto or two in these no problem if they were in reasonable nick. You'd get beaten badly by a 10 year old Kia but whatever. I course I auto-x'd my old 1970 diesel Mercedes.

[thewalrus]

[thewalrus]

This is really making me miss my MG, by the way. Such a great car. And so much character and charm. Slowest, worst handling, least safe, and least efficient car I've ever owned - and simultaneously the best and my favorite. When we get a house and a proper garage, I think I'll have to get something similar again. Maybe an Alfa this time, though. Because that Spider totally won me over...

... if I had stupid kinds of money the Duetto would be exactly the way I'd go.

[Talon]

Saw a nice Jag E Type the other day. Silver with black rag top. I'd hit it.

[sombrio]

I'm going to go pick up this beauty tonight unless someone convinces me I'm making a horrible mistake...

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/ct ... 51605.html

Thanks for the help, and I'll give some updates once I start inspecting everything thoroughly... on the one hand the low mileage seems great but on the other hand I suspect a lot of the parts that decay over time are going to need replacing...

[Arthur Dent]

That looks really nice from the ad. Nice price with the overdrive too. Super jealous.

Check out - http://www.triumphspitfire.com/Ref.html tons of info.

http://www.triumphexp.com/ is a nice forum as is http://www.britishcarforum.com/bcf/foru ... 18-Triumph

[thewalrus]

[Arthur Dent]

so ....